I assume that, if
And tens, if not hundreds of Brits will follow suit.
That's not the only reason why the Greeks should give the finger to the Eurocrats. Top Eurocrats appear arrogant beyond belief.
They don't think the EC accounts should be signed off, they don't seem to care about disgraceful expenses and allowances abuses and, when it comes to having to think hard and deep about a problem, they shirk it.
They've shilly-shallied over
When British idiots like John Major and Douglas Hurd tied us into the fixed exchange rate mechanism called ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism) in 1990 - wags dubbed it the 'Eternal Recession Mechanism.'
They were right.
And that's what these top Eurocrats prescribe for the Greeks.
Top Eurocrats don't think of the effect of their actions on other men. Eurocrats only think of dogma, regulations and compulsion in pursuit of their ideal State.
Men can't live like that.
Fantastic recipe for another war in Europe. Exactly the opposite of the goal. Europe should have implemented real accounting standards as a condition of forming the Euro and the EEC, just as Germany wanted.
Why Germany went along with the idiotic implementation of the standards for joining the EEC, I'll never understand.
Steve, I think that currently there's no need for any invasion. Germans and French own Greece anyway...
I believe the Germans were being Euro-idealistic, Steve, which has turned out to be a dangerous thing to be. All I know is that a country can't survive with an uncompetitive exchange rate as the UK found out with the ERM. When we came out of the ERM the UK economy grew again. Bailing out Greece is a fool's errand because it'll still be stuck with an uncompetitive exchange rate. In that situation can Greek industrialists then compete with German industrialists? UK industrialists couldn't.
Yes indeed, NoI, 50 years ago the Greeks used to complain that the country was owned by American companies. Invasion would be pointless. Foreigners already own the productive parts.
The birthplace of democracy, and there is now unelected Greek "leaders", signing off agreements written by unelected EU technocrats. Meanwhile the people of Greece protest outside, making quite clear that their instruction is the opposite.
The government (according to popular belief) is there to enact the will of the people. When that government no longer listens to, nor acts according to, the will of the people....it worries me that next steps are inevitable.
(We should also stop using the term "bailing out Greece". The entities actually being bailed out are the holders of Greek debt, i.e. the banks. The discussions last week were that the bailout money should not go via Greece at all, but should pass straight to the banks. "Bailing out Greece" has the connotation of helping the Greek people, and the money will do no such thing!).
Excellent points John. As you say, it's distasteful to see Brussels - which is anti-democratic to the core - trying to impose policies rejected by the Greek people. And, as you also say, the measures are just a way of getting ordinary people to pay for the mistakes of banks and politicians. It's a valuable insight into the horribleness of European leadership.
Guess what?
It's all our fault.
Belgium was created by the Brits, back in the days when Britain counted for sommat.
http://www.amazon.com/Political-History-Belgium-1830-Onwards/dp/9054872764
And the EU is the bastard child of that cockup.
Ho hum.
Are you sure [Anonymous] I would have thought Belgium wsas one of the few f****ed up countries which wasn't the fault of the Brits, Wikipedia says: "As a consequence of revolt in 1567, the southern provinces became subject to Spain (1579), then to the Austrian Habsburgs (1713), to France (1795), and finally in 1815 to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. While Luxembourg remained linked to the Netherlands until 1867, Belgium’s union with the Netherlands ended with the 1830 revolution. Belgian nationality is generally considered to date from this event." In other words the Continentals scrapped over it for hundreds of years. If Belgian dominion over the Congo is anything to go by, they shouldn't be encouraged to rule Europe.
Its not 'Brussels Eurocrats', its the Eurozone finance ministers (government ministers from each national government in the Eurozone) who are making the decisions.
And its the Greeks being forced out rather than giving the finger, the Greek finance minister made clear last night that he believes some of the other Euorzone finance ministers are seeking to engineer a Greek sovereign default and exit from the Euro.
A messy sovereign debt default might give you a cheap holiday but its would be a disaster for most Greeks.
Good point Mark, it's this 'troika' of banks and finance ministers and, as you say, some - the Germans and this Luxembourg guy - clearly want the Greeks out. But, as when the UK boomed after getting out of the ERM, it seems to me ordinary Greeks will be better off when the country has a competitive exhange rate and they can start earning money. But the Greek PM still keeps saying default will make the lives of ordinary Greeks worse. The UK ERM experience suggests the Greek PM is wrong.
A very likely consequence of Greece's exit from the euro-zone is a large effective devaluation, which will make their imports of fuel and manufactured goods significantly more expensive. That won't improve the masses' standard of living in the short term. I very much doubt if the Greek government will then be in a position to subsidise fuel costs.
Interesting point, Robertl, I see Greece gets 70% of its electricity from the use of domestically-sourced lignite. It has 3000 hours of sunshine a year which could, if exploited, provide 30% of its energy (not just electricity) needs and wind power which, if exploited, could provide 15% of total energy needs. BUT at the moment Greece gets half its total energy needs from oil which is all imported. So Yes, it would be tricky for the Greeks for a while but, when people see the challenge and rise to it and are united, it's amazing what can be achieved. Better, IMHO, than living under a Berlin/Brussels yoke.
The EU won't work long-term, it's a monster out of control. It makes up its own mandate and Sarkozy is in there manipulating everything he can to France's benefit.
Let's be honest for some reason (as if we hadn't helped him in WW2) General De Gaulle vetoed the UK membership and formed a partnership with the German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer. The reason was obvious the French wanted the agricultural policy and Germany wanted to be the financial centre (Frankfurt).
So as you can see the EU was born out of political gain, it will die out of political ignorance.
Wise words, Mr C. A political system lacking accountability, transparency and responsibility can't survive.
"A political system lacking accountability, transparency and responsibility can't survive."
China take note...
OMG, Robertl, is this is what is being lined up for us? Now that democracy's failed?
According to an interview I saw with Douglas Hurd (on a programme about our disorderly exit from the ERM I think) it was Mrs T who insisted on the over-valuation of the £ when Britain went into the ERM, and she was told at the time it would be unsustainable for exporters.
Her reasons for doing this weren't explained but probably had a lot to do with the fact that she wanted a service based economy, made more attractive by the fact that most manufacturers were unionised, and she didn't think the service industry would be hurt by a high exchange rate.
Add the fact that the ambulance chasers and estate agents would be able to buy their nice Mercs and Beemers at a reduced cost, and thank the old besom for this with their votes, what wasn't to like?
I don't know whether the Greeks were taken in to the Euro at too high a rate, but whatever - the situation they are in now might best be served by a Britain like ERM exit and an Argentina like default. Not popular with the German motor industry but probably a good way for democracy to poke one in the eye of banking oligarchy.
Well said, Stooriefit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Revolution
Lord Palmerstone.
Treaty of London.
Etc. Etc.
Not our finest hour.
Crikey you're right [Anonymous] Belgium was our fault - how embarrassing.
Whether a “credit event” is a “default” triggering a payout is determined by the International Swaps and Derivatives Association (ISDA), and it seems that the ISDA is owned by the world’s largest banks and hedge funds. That means the house determines whether the house has to pay.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/20
I don't know who is to blame
I don't know how things are to be solved.
I do now know that even the bankers, politicians and economists don't understand economics.
I am a European and know that the whole continent is in crisis not just Greece.
An attitude of us and them will not help matters
"We're in this together" will.
Indeed Johan, and when the ministers and members of parliament vote pay cuts for themselves, we'll know that 'we're all in this together'.